Episode Summary
In our penultimate episode of the season, we’re talking about radical solutions in health care. We look at the historical example of the 1970 Lincoln Hospital Takeover in the Bronx with former Black Panther and Young Lord Cleo Silvers. Casey also goes down the history rabbit hole discussing their MA thesis. We also sit down with Fiyah Angel and Rachel Thompson from the Radical Well-Being Center in Southfield, MI to talk about their work in the field of mental health and decolonized healing practices.
Want to learn more about the Lincoln Hospital takeover? We recommend two excellent recent documentaries: Emma Francis-Snyder’s Takeover and Mia Donovan’s Dope Is Death.
To learn more about the Detroit Justice Center and support our work, go here.
Episode Transcript
Cleo Silvers:
You cannot do this without being really well-read, well-organized, and well-established in your understanding of what it is that you are doing. You have to have an analysis, you have to have actual demands, or else they’ll just ignore you and they’ll call the cops and put you in jail. They’ll kill you or something like that.
Amanda Alexander:
That was Cleo Silvers, a former Black Panther, who you’ll hear more from shortly. I’m Amanda Alexander, the Executive Director of the Detroit Justice Center.
Casey Rocheteau:
I’m Casey Rocheteau, Communications Manager at DJC. Today on Freedom Dreams, what does radical well-being look like? What does it feel like? How do we take control of healthcare in our communities? And who are the people leading the way?
Fiyah Angel:
Hi, I’m Fiyah Angel. I’m one of the founders of Radical Well-Being Center, as well as the Afrofuturist there. I provide rituals and healing modalities that are ancestral as well as those that are Afrofuturistic rituals that we’re building for the future, for the collective.
Casey Rocheteau:
Before we get into our conversation with Fiyah Angel and her colleague Rachel Thompson, we want to do what we do. We want to look at why places like the Radical Well-Being Center are so necessary and unique. Obviously, for the past year and a half, we’ve been living through a global pandemic and there’s been a lot brought to light about racism in the medical field during this time and I was looking at historical instances of how we’ve taken over healthcare for our communities, both in the past, and then how we’re doing it today.
Amanda Alexander:
Yeah Casey, there’s a story relevant to today’s episode set in the Bronx in New York in 1970. It’s a story that you actually wrote your master’s thesis on, can you tell us about it?
Casey Rocheteau:
All right I guess. My master’s thesis was really about two different Black Panther Parties in New York City. It explored the idea that Black Panther… There was a way that the Huey Newton and Bobby Seale Party got franchised into 68 different cities and at least eight other countries around the world, but it was an idea that actually started in Lowndes County, Alabama with SNCC. Lowndes County was a county in Alabama where 80% of that county was Black and not a single black person had ever voted.
Now in this country, it says majority rules. We are 80% of the majority in this, we are 80% in this county, and we have the right to rule this county. We have the right to rule this county and we’re going to rule it. I don’t care how poor we are and how Black we are, we’re going to govern this county.
Casey Rocheteau:
A lot of folks down there couldn’t read, so what they were trying to do was get voter engagement and actually get Black folks to vote. But they needed a symbol for folks to recognize on the ballot if they couldn’t read and so the new political party was named the Lowndes County Freedom Organization. But it became better known by the symbol it shows, a black panther.
Casey Rocheteau:
Kwame Ture, at the time named Stokely Carmichael, went around talking about his experiences organizing in Lowndes County, all over the country and inspired so many people. The thing that he was calling for, was there needs to be a Black Panther Party like this in every single jurisdiction, anywhere there are black people in the US, which then inspires all these folks across the country to join the organization. They then inspired other groups, the Brown Berets, the Young Lords, Yellow Peril and they’d work alongside the American-Indian Movement. There’s a lot of organizing culturally, but with a really strong emphasis on anti-capitalist, Marxist politics and serving the people, actually providing material support and they started in 1968. These were programs, like free breakfast for children, sickle cell testing and free health clinics. They would do electrical repairs, they would do exterminations in buildings where there were roaches and rats and that sort of thing. Any material concern you could think of, black folks having in urban areas, the Panthers were like, “Let’s do something about this, let’s do something tangible about this.”
And part of what I wrote my thesis about was, there was a heroin explosion in the ’70s, in the early ’70s in the Bronx, and there were a number of activists, Young Lords and Black Panthers, who were looking at the government solution, which was these methadone clinics. They said, “That’s just hooking people on a different drug, that’s not solving the problem. It’s not fixing the conditions of what happens to somebody who’s dealing with heroin addiction when they try to detox.” This gets into what happens at the hospital in August 1970, when a group of Young Lords, Black Panthers and members of the Republic of New Africa and other radical activists formed The Health Revolutionary Unity Movement, with Cleo Silvers as its chairperson.
Cleo Silvers:
The hospital is known as the butcher shop, Lincoln Hospital, because you could spend 72 hours in the emergency room and not be seen. And if you didn’t speak English, the doctors weren’t probably going to see you. There’s no food or water available to you in the emergency room in 72 hours and your cut or you have the flu or some horrible thing happened to you. The conditions were unbelievable, not to speak of all the horror stories about surgeries that took place there, where they’re leaving instruments in the person’s body and people were dying on the operating table and all this stuff.
Amanda Alexander:
This move was spurred by the death of a woman named Carmen Rodriguez. She underwent an abortion procedure at Lincoln and didn’t make it out alive. HRUM and community members blamed Rodriguez’s death on doctors and staff. HRUM activist incensed over the hospital’s failure to prevent the death in light of their cumulated list of grievances did not attempt to shut down hospital functions instead they took over.
Casey Rocheteau:
The Think Lincoln committee, which incorporated community members, hospital workers and staff, organizers from HRUM and other activists, took over with the aim of implementing changes within the hospitals programs and raising awareness about community issues within the hospital. We say, look, this is real simple. We don’t resolve this issue with you right now, the next thing to come in is the guys with the guns. You don’t want the guys with the guns coming in.
The takeover ended 12 hours later when a large squadron of NYPD officers in riot gear surrounded the building and activists left peacefully without arrests. The action elicited a promise from mayor John Lindsay to build a new hospital on East 149th street. Beyond this promise from the mayor, the activists had huge success. They were able to open their own acupuncture clinic called The People’s Detox Center, headed by Dr. Mutulu Shakur. The center helped people get off heroin and was the first of its kind. Their work led to a new treatment protocol and more widespread use of acupuncture to help people heal from substance use disorder and get relief from stress and emotion trauma.
Amanda Alexander:
The reason that we wanted to talk about the Lincoln Hospital takeover is because it really situates us within this deeper history of communities identifying needs that are not being met by mainstream institutions like hospitals. And community members recognizing that in order to have needs met, you need to talk with people and understand what do they need, and then sometimes you need to go ahead and create it. In the case of the Lincoln Hospital takeover, they went ahead and seized the building and started delivering the types of care that people needed. In the example that we’re about to talk about at the Radical Well-Being Center today in Michigan, the founders recognized that there was this healthcare industry that wasn’t beginning to touch the needs that people have around healing, much less radical wellbeing. They went ahead and created the center, that is meeting needs in a way that the usual healthcare industry doesn’t begin to touch.
Casey Rocheteau:
After a short break, the visionary leaders behind the Radical Well-Being Center.
Sheba Rogers:
Hello, I’m Sheba Rogers, and I’m the Divest/Invest senior program manager with the Detroit Justice Center in our Just Cities Lab. When people hear legal nonprofit, they probably think of attorneys and courtrooms fighting for clients. While we do plenty of that, my role in involves navigating how policy makers in Lansing, can better meet the needs of communities here in Detroit. One thing we’re fond of saying at DJC is that “Incarceration is always a policy failure.” And it’s part of my job to help facilitate policy that decreases our reliance on police and prisons. Our supporters make what we do possible and if you want to support our work, visit detroitjustice.org/donate.
Casey Rocheteau:
We are back and so excited to introduce you to these two.
Fiyah Angel:
Okay. Hi, I’m Fiyah Angel.
Rachel Thompson:
My name is Rachel Thompson and I have been with RadWell since we first opened. I am one of the therapists and I’m also a community organizer.
Amanda Alexander:
The Radical Well-Being Center is in Southfield, Michigan, just up the road from Detroit, and here’s how they describe what they do.
Casey Rocheteau:
Radical Well-Being Center offers psychotherapy for individuals, couples, and families, group therapy, massage, Reiki, and decolonized healing and energy work, nutrition counseling from a non diet/health at every size, intuitive eating perspective, educational workshops and community events. Their therapists are trauma informed and work from a social justice and harm reduction perspective.
Amanda Alexander:
Can you paint a picture for folks? What is it like to walk into RadWell? What does this space look like? What’s on the walls? What does it feel like to be there? And also how is it different from more conventional clinical settings?
Fiyah Angel:
The decorations are fun. There’s queer art on the wall, there’s black art, there’s fat art, there’s encouraging statements. We wanted to make sure every bathroom at least have space to take a good wash up in, there’s a nice sink bowl in there, the lighting’s great, you can take good selfies in the bathroom. You can see some of the therapists unique personalities and the tools that they use. Some of them have crystals out or games if they work with a lot of kids, clay, things like that. It’s a real good vibe.
Amanda Alexander:
Could you back up and just tell the story of the Radical Well-Being Center? What was the need that you all saw and what do you all do?
Fiyah Angel:
When we started it, it was a collective of about four or five of us and doing different healing practices, a psychologist, a social worker, myself, a social work student. And We were discussing our various social locations, intersections and what our experiences had been in trying to receive mental health services and what the blocks had been, as well as being people who worked in those fields and how we weren’t able to even work at places that gave us the space for our own healing and development.
What we wanted to create was a place where, not only could people who had been historically excluded from receiving mental health services receive them, but also a place where the people that worked there, as they worked, it had room to heal, room to grow, explore other interests, build a community and have a place to launch from. It’s also a launchpad where we’re hoping people can come be nurtured and given the space that they need to recover from oppression and build a new place for themselves and go out and build these bridges in the community.
Amanda Alexander:
That’s beautiful.
Rachel Thompson:
I was brought in, like I said, at the beginning. My background as a therapist has always been in Wayne County community mental health settings, I worked in an inpatient psychiatric hospital, I was a medical advocate in the jails, worked at a homeless shelter as the lead clinician and I could never quite last very long at any of these places. Generally because I would spend too much time with the clients and they wanted you to see as many people as possible and basically all those experiences of employment prior to RadWell taught me how I do not want to operate as a therapist, and when they came to me with this idea of opening the Radical Well-Being Center, I was so excited.
It’s my first time working in private practice and then also my background, like I said, is in community organizing and they told me that I would have an opportunity to help decide how to do the therapy program and be able to do some community organizing at the same time, take as few or as many clients as I wanted to see and be able to bring in some of the more holistic approaches to therapy that I wasn’t able to ever use at other places where I worked, and that was extremely appealing to me. That’s how I ended up there too.
Amanda Alexander:
Thank you. You each talked about some of the frustrations or the barriers that made it pretty clear that these existing systems aren’t truly therapeutic, they aren’t about wellbeing, could you say more? I know Rachel, you had said not being able to have the time that you actually needed to spend with any one person. Are there some of the other things that really pointed you to, “Oh no, this is not a workable system.” What were some of the other things that made this clear?
Rachel Thompson:
Extremely high caseloads, being told how many people you have to see a day. When I was in the shelter, I was the only therapist in a shelter with 200 people. That’s obviously not realistic. I would say, a whole bunch of unnecessary paperwork that people had to do all of the time. Barriers to people even being able to sign up for Medicaid, you were responsible for navigating people through the system to even get Medicaid before you can even start therapy and sometimes that was a very lengthy process. The expectation at the shelter was also that I was simultaneously providing therapy and helping people find housing, which was way too much for one person.
Amanda Alexander:
Can you guys walk us through how people typically find you? What is it like to interact with the Radical Well-Being Center?
Fiyah Angel:
Most people find us through social media, Instagram, Facebook, Google searches and that is one of the ways we actually do intakes. We do intakes through Facebook Messenger, through Instagram chat, via email. These things are important for a few reasons, sometimes people don’t have phone service so if they can get to a wifi signal and interact with us through Facebook Messenger, we can communicate with populations that will get ignored by traditional mental health places, also different levels of anxiety. And we have so many modes of communication available. It makes sense to be able to set up people’s first appointment, use communication that’s comfortable for them.
Amanda Alexander:
Yeah.
Fiyah Angel:
Via email, via text message, some people do call and any of these ways, we are able to do an intake and get people in. Most people are coming for outpatient services, we have couples therapy. One of the things that’s really great about it, is our therapists get to be really open about who they are, we have polyamorous therapists, kinky therapists, queer therapists, people of all different experiences and identities. People can come in as who they are, because their therapist is sitting there authentically. They come in, they seek those services and then they find out we have other things available. We have some people like to use the individual therapy sessions along with nutrition therapy.
We have a non-diet based approach to nutrition, a non-poverty shaming based approach to nutrition. We have a nutritionist that understands how nutrition works in marginalized communities, and food apartheids, and all the places where our bodies have been victimized by oppression around food. That’s something that people use as well as the Reiki services, the massage and things like that. And our therapists are also learning and being certified in different modalities as well, so they’re able to do therapy and offer other healing as well. We have so many therapists who are cross trained as Reiki teachers. There’s a lot of room there.
Amanda Alexander:
That’s incredible. This is such a holistic approach to things which is making me wonder how do you all define radical wellbeing?
Fiyah Angel:
That’s a good question. It’s something that we’re building because it feels like in all of the abolition work that’s going on, it seems like we’re at a point where the map has not been filled in yet, what is happening is not exactly clear. It feels like we are in, this keeps coming up for me, uncharted territories. We’ve made it so far into the future that now we have to start naming what it is. For me, the radical wellbeing is a future that we are calling forth. Maybe we are not as radical as we would like to be at this time because we are still learning how to continue to be subversive in capitalism, how to infuse capitalism with reciprocity, how do we navigate this in the face of a global pandemic and still not being out of the threat of whatever this government is doing. There’s all these things happening at the same time.
Fiyah Angel:
So for me, radical wellbeing is us being able to look at each other and go, we’re on this journey together. We’re going to share what we have, we’re going to hold up for each other, we’re going to walk together. For me, that’s what radical wellbeing is and we take care of each other on the way.
Amanda Alexander:
Thank you. Rachel, anything to add in terms of that question?
Rachel Thompson:
It’s unfortunate that something as simple as even recognizing stress, trauma and oppression, as a part of what people need to discuss in therapy is radical, that should be a baseline thing. And also what they were talking about in relation to therapists feeling like we can actually show up as people and as humans. There’s this rule in therapy, you don’t self disclose, you don’t tell people anything about yourself. And if you’re involved in the same communities, you can’t be someone’s therapist and I don’t believe in that at all, I think that if we are involved in some of the same communities, we can much better understand and relate how to talk about our individual issues. I very firmly believe that therapy is not an individual thing. We come and we discuss the things that we are individually dealing with, but I think that healing has to happen within community.
Rachel Thompson:
That’s something that’s radical, we very much encourage people from our various communities to come and receive therapy at the Radical Well-Being Center, as opposed to saying, “Oh, we’ve met before we can’t see you.” Which that doesn’t make any sense to me and never has. I think that’s something that’s very radical, but I agree that we don’t know, we’re trying to figure that out. We’re all in the process of decolonizing our practice right now, we’ve only been open for two years, we’ve all worked within these community mental health places, these institutional settings, and been taught these certain ways to practice therapy in grad school and all of that.
Rachel Thompson:
We’re having to unlearn a lot of that and figure out what that looks like for us and what’s actually better and more healing for people and how we can do that within the existing system where we bill insurance companies and stuff like that, but another radical piece that was already mentioned is that a lot of us are also trained in energy work and more holistic approaches that we bring to the table and can refer people to each other. If there’s something we can’t provide, that’s the point of it is to have this collective where we can heal more in community, like I said.
Casey Rocheteau:
Can you talk a little bit about energy work, Reiki, acupuncture, these non-traditional or actually very traditional modalities of healing that we don’t have access to through our insurance? And why you gravitated towards them and what they can do for people?
Fiyah Angel:
All of these modalities have existed for thousands of years, Reiki and energy work. Even in Christianity, they have some concepts of energy work when they talk about healing through laying hands on, this type of idea that we are not separate, we are connected to the universe and its healing power. And any of us has the right and the ability to access it and use it for healing. That’s what they all are about but during colonization, many, most, all of our healing tools from our instruments to our teachings, our rituals, all of those things were removed from us and we have not been able to access them. Some of them have been put into the system, so they’re difficult to access there, or they’ve been so whitewashed that a lot of the healing benefit is lost in bureaucracy.
Fiyah Angel:
Then they’re the things that they have made taboo so that many of us even feel guilty or have a reservation about seeking these services. In a way I’m glad insurance have kept their hands off of this, we are seeing rumblings in some states where they are trying to make Reiki something that is available on insurance, but it would take Reiki practitioners through a bunch of steps that would, again really remove a lot of the benefit of it, so saying that these services can also be really expensive, they can be really expensive over a hundred dollars an hour for some of these services and our people may feel like they can’t access them. One of the things that we do at RadWell is the people who can pay do and we offer a sliding scale for those who need financial support or they can’t afford it.
Amanda Alexander:
This is raising a question, I’m sure some people might be wondering, how are you guys funded?
Fiyah Angel:
We have a small access fund that’s been set up right now that people have given donations too, to cover services for folks. We do have a small fund now, but we’re hoping to get bigger donations so that we can do more like what Rachel was talking about, the mobile healing unit, that we could have a couple of vans to meet people in the community. That’s one thing and through insurance, we do take insurance, and then we have our access fund and we are also able to offer a sliding scale. Those of us who are not therapists, who are healing practitioners, we can really work with people about the cost.
Amanda Alexander:
DJC is also very much an experiment of an organization and very much learning as we go, it sounds like you guys are. And we try and reflect often about our highlights and our challenges. And I’m curious, what is one thing that has been just an unexpected challenge or a hurdle this far in this work? But then also what has been a highlight? A moment where you’ve been like, “Oh my God, this is why we are doing this.” Just some unforgettable moment that has affirmed that you’re on the right path with this.
Rachel Thompson:
I can speak to that. I would say that one of the biggest challenges over the last year has obviously been figuring out how to provide therapy when within COVID times. That’s actually how that access funds started, before anything shut down, we started talking about, “Okay, are we going to do this?” We can’t see people in person because at the time insurance companies didn’t pay for telehealth and we weren’t sure how that was going to play out. We started the fund then to be able to allow people to continue to see us via telehealth, if their insurance companies weren’t able to cover it. And then transitioning from all of us being this collective who’s in an office together to providing therapy individually in our own homes for the last year has been definitely the biggest challenge and the most unexpected thing.
In terms of just stuff that’s very exciting. I mean, to speak to the access fund again, we didn’t end up having to use that money for that, insurance companies started paying for telehealth so now we’re in this position where we’re able to use this nonprofit arm that we started for that specific purpose to do some of these other things where we’re able to operate outside of insurance structures. And that’s something that I’ve never done. As a therapist, I’ve always charged the insurance companies and that’s how I made my money so it gives us more freedom to envision what it would look like to bring services into the community and to operate outside of these very strict stipulations where they tell us how we have to do things. That’s what I’m super excited about at the moment is half doing the therapy sessions where we’re getting money from insurance companies and then half, how do we dream about what this looks like when we don’t have to deal with them anymore?
Amanda Alexander:
Brilliant.
Fiyah Angel:
I want to add about this. One of the biggest challenges for me that I’ve seen, that I’ve felt, that we’ve walked through in this last year especially, is helping everyone hold the vision. Oppression really takes away our ability to dream. Oppression takes away our imagination and our vision. And our belief that we deserve it, that we’re worth it. And it has been very challenging to have hold that vision for myself while also hold it for everyone and help us remember why we’re doing this. That has been one of the biggest challenges, especially in the face of the pandemic, last year’s election, all of these things. But one of the things that I’m excited about is that we were open through it. We didn’t have to leave any of our clients behind. We also, from this, we’ve started a free store.
We have a free store where people can come shop, there’s clothes, there’s such a diverse selection of clothing, that I’ve done clothing swaps and free stores for many years and there’s always been an issue with like sizing and gender clothing. But this has been a place where people could come and try on clothes in a safe space, experiment with new looks. A lot of us have learned some different things about ourselves during the pandemic and how we would like to express our sales, so the clothing closet has been great because people have been able to come in and play and shop and pick things up.
We’ve also had, I’m really proud about this one, through some of our connections with other groups who were doing their own healing work and using our space, even during COVID when our space was shut down, some of these groups have actually grown. You can check out Elena Knox at Healing Fat Bodies. This group, she started right before COVID through RadWell, has exploded into a phenomenon of healing in groups and individual sessions around oppression and fat phobia and fat liberation, all of these things. I’m really proud of that. I could go on, but those are the highlights.
Amanda Alexander:
It’s incredible.
Casey Rocheteau:
I know, now I’m like I have so many clothes to get rid of on my pull up on you with bags of clothes.
Fiyah Angel:
Yeah. Bring them, bring them. We’ve been having a good time, curating them and sharing them with the community, it’s really great, I love it.
Amanda Alexander:
I have another question about what advice you all have for people, maybe in other cities, other parts of Michigan, other parts of the country who want to be part of something like this. Doing healing work in or for their community, what advice do you have for them on just some first steps for getting started?
Fiyah Angel:
Dreaming is the biggest step, really dreaming big and holding that. And knowing that you already know enough, you already know enough, whatever healing modality that you’re called to, whatever you’re already doing, it’s already enough. It will grow and develop and transform over time. We have to use the tools. There’s no waiting to use the tools until we learn how to use them. You already know. So just begin using your tools and the roads will open. The roads will open and you will end up where you are supposed to be.
Amanda Alexander:
Thank you. Well, it’s time now for our final question that we ask everyone on the podcast, and that is what are your freedom dreams for your work? So thinking 50, a hundred years out even, what are your freedom dreams for the legacy of the work that you’re doing?
Fiyah Angel:
A great deal of the work that I’m doing is around transformative healing. In addition to RadWell, I’ve been working with a group called The TETRA, which is a Digital Underground Railroad and participation with the TETRA and RadWell combined. And reparations work that I’m doing like all of these things combined, have me visualize in a future where we have like a generation of people who are born without this inherited trauma, a group of people who are born being taught to remember who they are and who they came here to be, a group of people who are enjoying existence, enjoying being incarnated in a physical body and having all of the physical experiences that they desire, not being limited by the state. I see rest, I feel a lot of vibing, eating snacks, wearing and making beautiful things, and having advanced what we are doing now, having just taking it to a whole nother level where we’re sitting here, scratching our heads going, “I don’t really know how do you do it?” And they’re like, “Yeah, they figured it out for us.” And they’re just enjoying it.
Rachel Thompson:
It’s not about funding and getting the grants. And it’s about doing things the way that we used to do. I mean, just to go back to the way that we used to heal one another in community where it wasn’t this like pathologized thing to struggle. And a lot of rest, more reasonable work weeks, having a non-hierarchical version of healing where it’s not like I’m the therapist and you’re the client, or we’re able to collaboratively work together and do this healing work the way that we are supposed to be doing it and always have done it up until the last little bit of history.
Casey Rocheteau:
Love that. Thank you both, this has been a great conversation.
Rachel Thompson:
Yeah. Thank you. It’s fun.
Casey Rocheteau:
Good. Yeah. It’s been quite literally a dream come true to be talking with you so thank You.
Fiyah Angel:
I’m glad we know each other now.
Amanda Alexander:
What I appreciate about RadWell is the way that they’re so attuned to not just making sure that people who come to them for care, receive excellent affirming care, but also that their staff are valued and are able to work at a pace that feels humane sustainable to them so I think that they are really modeling what it means to be attuned to the radical wellbeing of everyone in the community, including healthcare providers.
Casey Rocheteau:
Yeah. And I think it’s very difficult for healthcare providers to do that for themselves. A lot of times, because there are these regulations. I’m thinking about one of my oldest friends who, shout out to Jerica, is in PA school right now. And I was sitting, I had been waiting for about an hour at a doctor’s appointment and I texted her and it was as if someone she’d been waiting for someone to ask her the question of why are doctors always late? And it gets into the fact that doctors are required to stack their schedules in a way that is unreasonable because they have to meet certain regulations for Medicare and that’s unreasonable.
Casey Rocheteau:
And so those standards have been set by somebody who’s not practicing medicine usually. And to me, this is both RadWell and I think the hospital takeover example, these are not just people who are concerned community members, but these are healthcare professionals who are really taking charge of, “Look, we can’t keep operating like this anymore. We’ve got to be able to provide the care that people need in a way that is not draining us.” And that is a story that is very relevant to our present moment.
Amanda Alexander:
Yes. Freedom Dreams is a production of the Detroit Justice Center. Special thanks to our team, Zak Rosen, our producer, as well as Lawrielle West and Elana Maloul for research and assistance.
Casey Rocheteau:
The Freedom Dreams theme song is Asante, artwork is by Gunner and Hobbs. If you want to learn more about today’s episode, head to freedomdreamspodcast.com. Email us a voice memo of your freedom dream at freedomdreams@detroitjustice.org.
Amanda Alexander:
You can also write to us on social media where freedomdreamspod on Instagram and FreedomDreamPod on Twitter.
Casey Rocheteau:
If you feel compelled to donate to the work we do, you can find us at detroitjustice.org/donate.
Amanda Alexander:
And lastly, if you love this show and you want us to find a wider audience, please leave us a rating or review at Apple Podcast, it really helps.